Thanks for your piece Gary. I had to answer a question in a public law exam at a NZ university a few years ago that asked us to assess the merits of two separate justice systems, one for Māori, and one for everyone else. I played along for the most part, but did mention the issues that Sharia courts in the UK presented for people subject to their pronouncements (aka women!) and the dangers of creating separate justice systems based on ethnic/religious identities. Let’s just say I didn’t do well on that question! No diversity of thought or critical thinking encouraged in the universities when it comes to Tikanga.
As a first year law student I've been force-fed the principles of Tikanga and Te Ao Maori throughout the year; most intensely during the first half and woven throughout the second. This surfeit of customary and cultural studies was sadly remiss however when it came to study prep for our final exam. Maori students were invited to a number of weekend workshops covering proposed' exam questions (that turned out to be the exam questions) and detailed essay structuring assistance to the extent of being told what to say and where. My attempt to join the Maori Student Law Association in order to gain access to these workshops was ignored until the workshops were over. I am Caucasian.
It is interesting to note the message of Justice Joe Williams "decolonising the Law in Aotearoa" narrative was the basis of one exam question and also perfectly reflected the tone of the Solicitor-General's speech. What is of more concern is the constant presence of political agendas that subtly threads itself throughout the papers, creating an absence of space for robust and productive constitutional debate.
The course must not be a compulsory component of a Law degree. As with many valuable and interesting ideas and positions, students must be free to pick and choose, that is a sound way in which knowledge can be relevant and form part of their experience. Force-feeding has never worked .
Once again it seems we have a situation where a little of something that is appropiate for a few people is applied to everyone eg. sex change surgeries and puberty blockers, covid vaccinations, climate change madness. That to me is this evidence enough of a grift and the activist maori agenda and industry is no different....
The complete disregard for the reality of Maori tribal life where for some tribes that meant wiping out as many other tribes as possible, killing and eating them, taking slaves and land and other possessions with the only concern being the possibility of retribution means that all this tikanga business is at best, based upon half truths.
Well done Gary. I see that Jagose has backed down somewhat, so announcing in a cascade of obfuscation. What I do not understand is why the Law Society executive has been seemingly supportive of much of this dangerous ideology without, so far as I know, any authority from its members.
I am reminded of the story of Einstein and his wife. At the beginning of their marriage Einstein agreed that she would make all the small decisions and he would make the big ones. He said funny thing, after twenty years of marriage there were no big decisions. And that will be the way of Regulations, if Parliament does not actively step in and make the big decisions. Einstein may have had other fish to fry than making the big decisions pertaining to his family, but it is the duty of Parliament to oversee regulations and make those big decisions.
Thanks again for this thoughtful response Gary. I was particularly interested in your comment: 'Tikanga in itself is a religion or quasi-religion,' as this is something I'm tangling with at present.
Manuka Henare was clear in his 2021 publication when he said: "Māori religion is a belief in spiritual beings, and is both a way of life and a view of life. lt is found in rituals, ceremonies, religious objects, sacred places and sites, in art forms and carvings, in songs and dances, proverbs, wise sayings, and riddles, in the naming of people and places, in myths and legends, and in customs, beliefs, and practices.”
And as the way in which religion is being articulated and defined throughout the world, it creates political and legal issues, which we may never have imagined even 20 years ago. But there it is, a new challenge to be explored and faced into. Thanks again.
Brilliant as always Sir. My humble thanks for your courage on these significant matters. The Supreme Court are out of control, as is the Solicitor General and all the other leading ‘Maori’ activist academics (Wince, oops, Quince, Ruru, Charters, Godfery et al.)
The SC shows herself to be a complete goose (in J Maclean parlance) by delivering a formal law speech and referencing ‘Aotearoa’ throughout. Does that erroneous term actually appear in any statutes??
I hope this is successful, however too late for some. Our son has just completed his LAT to study law at UNSW, and has applied to three other Australian universities as his back-ups He and his friends (who wish to study law and/or commerce, medicine, computer science...) are, without exception, not considering NZ universities at all and have been explicit that the mandatory tikanga papers throughout Auckland and other NZ universities as one of the two reasons for leaving as 16 year olds; the other reason being the plummet in international rankings. Soon there will be no one (customer demand) to teach.
How does the university reconcile the compulsory nature of this with the statement "We understand that everyone is different, and no two individuals’ needs are quite the same." As well as turning away our children, what does this do for selling education to overseas students? I'm sure they're good papers for those that wish to complete them and, as such, should be available as optional Arts Faculty papers.
Thanks, Mike. That's a really important point. All Auckland University students, not just law students, are to be indoctrinated. See https://www.auckland.ac.nz/assets/study/programmes-and-courses/CFT%20Taumata.pdf. Note "Demonstrates our commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi principles and accountabilities, mātauranga Māori and kaupapa Māori pedagogies." This is not education about but "commitment to."
What a "battle royal"! This person has captured the highest legal office in the land and there seems to me very little chance of correcting her course unless the Governments terminates her. No doubt there are contractual obligations and I can't hep but think of how Donald Trump stacked the High Court in the US with judges of his political persuasion. God help us!
Gary, just to thank you for your concerted efforts in what is effectively a struggle against New Zealand becoming a partial theocracy not unlike some Islamic nations with their Sharia-based governance, which for New Zealand would be a deep dive backwards into almost medievalism. Actually in some respects worse as unlike extensively codified Islamic teaching and practice, Maori customs and beliefs, without written language are open to limitlessly broad interpretation and indeed interpretative abuse, as we are already seeing with the ToW, despite that it is such a simple written document.
Thanks, Ron. You are right. Adopting tikanga greatly increases the opportunity for judges to decide cases according to their own whims and ideologies, instead of in accordance with established law. It's a point I was going to make in my submission to the Committee but cut it out in the interests of allowing time for questions.
Well said, sir. I cannot think of a more problem-creating direction that could be indicated to today's up and coming lawyers than the one Ms Jagose endorses.
Thanks, Martin. Not just the Solicitor-General but the Supreme Court judge she quotes. And a crowd of Crown Law Office lawyers jumping on the band wagon. You will note that none of them explains how a mystical cultural artifact passed down through the generations by voice can satisfy the requirements of a legal system. These are the people who are advising the government of the day and purport to represent the Crown's view of the law.
It seems difficult for many people to grasp the importance of law being certain, consistent and predictable. This is what allows lawyers to usefully advise their clients as to what is permissible and what is not. This allows 90% of disputes to be settled without unaffordable trials.
In the case of tikanga nobody knows what the law is until there is a trial and experts offer opinions, and a single unelected judge finally ( perhaps years later) delivers her/his personal opinion as to what the “tikanga law” requires. But a different Judge may have a different opinion next week. It is law by lottery
This approach cannot possibly work in a modern fast-moving economy.
Well said. But tikanga does not just fail the ‘consistency’ test. It also fails the ‘makes some sense in a secular based legal system’ world. Fails badly!
Thank you for your information. I hope the Government is taking notice, or all the infrastructure development plans for NZ are worthless. A country needs stability and not stress,confusion and dissension to progress.
Thanks for your piece Gary. I had to answer a question in a public law exam at a NZ university a few years ago that asked us to assess the merits of two separate justice systems, one for Māori, and one for everyone else. I played along for the most part, but did mention the issues that Sharia courts in the UK presented for people subject to their pronouncements (aka women!) and the dangers of creating separate justice systems based on ethnic/religious identities. Let’s just say I didn’t do well on that question! No diversity of thought or critical thinking encouraged in the universities when it comes to Tikanga.
https://open.substack.com/pub/tomrenz/p/lawfare-what-we-do?r=187ngw&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post Here is an interesting article that could form a strategy for further push back
As a first year law student I've been force-fed the principles of Tikanga and Te Ao Maori throughout the year; most intensely during the first half and woven throughout the second. This surfeit of customary and cultural studies was sadly remiss however when it came to study prep for our final exam. Maori students were invited to a number of weekend workshops covering proposed' exam questions (that turned out to be the exam questions) and detailed essay structuring assistance to the extent of being told what to say and where. My attempt to join the Maori Student Law Association in order to gain access to these workshops was ignored until the workshops were over. I am Caucasian.
It is interesting to note the message of Justice Joe Williams "decolonising the Law in Aotearoa" narrative was the basis of one exam question and also perfectly reflected the tone of the Solicitor-General's speech. What is of more concern is the constant presence of political agendas that subtly threads itself throughout the papers, creating an absence of space for robust and productive constitutional debate.
The course must not be a compulsory component of a Law degree. As with many valuable and interesting ideas and positions, students must be free to pick and choose, that is a sound way in which knowledge can be relevant and form part of their experience. Force-feeding has never worked .
Once again it seems we have a situation where a little of something that is appropiate for a few people is applied to everyone eg. sex change surgeries and puberty blockers, covid vaccinations, climate change madness. That to me is this evidence enough of a grift and the activist maori agenda and industry is no different....
The complete disregard for the reality of Maori tribal life where for some tribes that meant wiping out as many other tribes as possible, killing and eating them, taking slaves and land and other possessions with the only concern being the possibility of retribution means that all this tikanga business is at best, based upon half truths.
Well done Gary. I see that Jagose has backed down somewhat, so announcing in a cascade of obfuscation. What I do not understand is why the Law Society executive has been seemingly supportive of much of this dangerous ideology without, so far as I know, any authority from its members.
RJKC
The Law Society hierarchy is at the forefront of promoting the ideology.
I am reminded of the story of Einstein and his wife. At the beginning of their marriage Einstein agreed that she would make all the small decisions and he would make the big ones. He said funny thing, after twenty years of marriage there were no big decisions. And that will be the way of Regulations, if Parliament does not actively step in and make the big decisions. Einstein may have had other fish to fry than making the big decisions pertaining to his family, but it is the duty of Parliament to oversee regulations and make those big decisions.
Thanks again for this thoughtful response Gary. I was particularly interested in your comment: 'Tikanga in itself is a religion or quasi-religion,' as this is something I'm tangling with at present.
Manuka Henare was clear in his 2021 publication when he said: "Māori religion is a belief in spiritual beings, and is both a way of life and a view of life. lt is found in rituals, ceremonies, religious objects, sacred places and sites, in art forms and carvings, in songs and dances, proverbs, wise sayings, and riddles, in the naming of people and places, in myths and legends, and in customs, beliefs, and practices.”
And as the way in which religion is being articulated and defined throughout the world, it creates political and legal issues, which we may never have imagined even 20 years ago. But there it is, a new challenge to be explored and faced into. Thanks again.
Thanks, Sande. Do you have a link, or reference for the publication? I would like to have a look at it.
Have replied to your message..
Brilliant as always Sir. My humble thanks for your courage on these significant matters. The Supreme Court are out of control, as is the Solicitor General and all the other leading ‘Maori’ activist academics (Wince, oops, Quince, Ruru, Charters, Godfery et al.)
The SC shows herself to be a complete goose (in J Maclean parlance) by delivering a formal law speech and referencing ‘Aotearoa’ throughout. Does that erroneous term actually appear in any statutes??
Thanks again for your work.
I hope this is successful, however too late for some. Our son has just completed his LAT to study law at UNSW, and has applied to three other Australian universities as his back-ups He and his friends (who wish to study law and/or commerce, medicine, computer science...) are, without exception, not considering NZ universities at all and have been explicit that the mandatory tikanga papers throughout Auckland and other NZ universities as one of the two reasons for leaving as 16 year olds; the other reason being the plummet in international rankings. Soon there will be no one (customer demand) to teach.
See also https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/study/study-options/undergraduate-study-options/evolving-your-education.html
How does the university reconcile the compulsory nature of this with the statement "We understand that everyone is different, and no two individuals’ needs are quite the same." As well as turning away our children, what does this do for selling education to overseas students? I'm sure they're good papers for those that wish to complete them and, as such, should be available as optional Arts Faculty papers.
Agreed.
Thanks, Mike. That's a really important point. All Auckland University students, not just law students, are to be indoctrinated. See https://www.auckland.ac.nz/assets/study/programmes-and-courses/CFT%20Taumata.pdf. Note "Demonstrates our commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi principles and accountabilities, mātauranga Māori and kaupapa Māori pedagogies." This is not education about but "commitment to."
What a "battle royal"! This person has captured the highest legal office in the land and there seems to me very little chance of correcting her course unless the Governments terminates her. No doubt there are contractual obligations and I can't hep but think of how Donald Trump stacked the High Court in the US with judges of his political persuasion. God help us!
Gary, just to thank you for your concerted efforts in what is effectively a struggle against New Zealand becoming a partial theocracy not unlike some Islamic nations with their Sharia-based governance, which for New Zealand would be a deep dive backwards into almost medievalism. Actually in some respects worse as unlike extensively codified Islamic teaching and practice, Maori customs and beliefs, without written language are open to limitlessly broad interpretation and indeed interpretative abuse, as we are already seeing with the ToW, despite that it is such a simple written document.
Thanks, Ron. You are right. Adopting tikanga greatly increases the opportunity for judges to decide cases according to their own whims and ideologies, instead of in accordance with established law. It's a point I was going to make in my submission to the Committee but cut it out in the interests of allowing time for questions.
Well said, sir. I cannot think of a more problem-creating direction that could be indicated to today's up and coming lawyers than the one Ms Jagose endorses.
Thanks, Martin. Not just the Solicitor-General but the Supreme Court judge she quotes. And a crowd of Crown Law Office lawyers jumping on the band wagon. You will note that none of them explains how a mystical cultural artifact passed down through the generations by voice can satisfy the requirements of a legal system. These are the people who are advising the government of the day and purport to represent the Crown's view of the law.
Well spoken Gary.
It seems difficult for many people to grasp the importance of law being certain, consistent and predictable. This is what allows lawyers to usefully advise their clients as to what is permissible and what is not. This allows 90% of disputes to be settled without unaffordable trials.
In the case of tikanga nobody knows what the law is until there is a trial and experts offer opinions, and a single unelected judge finally ( perhaps years later) delivers her/his personal opinion as to what the “tikanga law” requires. But a different Judge may have a different opinion next week. It is law by lottery
This approach cannot possibly work in a modern fast-moving economy.
Well said. But tikanga does not just fail the ‘consistency’ test. It also fails the ‘makes some sense in a secular based legal system’ world. Fails badly!
Thanks, Barry. In explaining why certainty, consistency and predictability are essential you have filled a gap left in my contributions.
Thank you for your information. I hope the Government is taking notice, or all the infrastructure development plans for NZ are worthless. A country needs stability and not stress,confusion and dissension to progress.